Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] Topic: Starter Solenoid Wiring  (Read 1775 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • Offline smash   us

    • Trophy Pro  ‐    191
    • ***
    • Topic Author

    Offline smash

    • Trophy Pro
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 191
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • Country: us
    Starter Solenoid Wiring
    on: Nov 05, 2020, 01.56 am
    Nov 05, 2020, 01.56 am
    I disconnected the four wires from the starter solenoid on the front of the bettery box when I took off the gas tank, instead of sliding the solenoid off the mount.  The service manual seems to show the red wire from the positive terminal connected to outboard, or throttle, side of the solenoid and the black wire from the front of the bike on the inboard, or clutch side.  I put the spade connectors back where it looked from the bends of the wires they came from.  One spade connector has a red and wire and the other wire is black.  The red and black spade connectors are reversed from the red and black wires on the posts.  It seems like each color should be on the same side.  The bike starts and runs, as poorly as before, with the current set up.  Do I have the spade connectors or wires on wrong?

  • Offline Coconut   gb

    • Trophy God  ‐    10004
    • *****
      #1

    Offline Coconut

    • Trophy God
    • *****
    • Posts: 10004
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: South Birmingham
    • Country: gb
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #1 on: Nov 05, 2020, 09.13 am
    Nov 05, 2020, 09.13 am
    I just checked mine and the ( Spade connectors ) Black wire is on the left / inboard side,
    and the White wire with Red stripe is on the right / outboard side.

    In practice it will probably work with these two wires connected either way around.

    For the Heavy duty cables - one from the Battery and one going to the Starter Motor,
    it doesn't matter which way round they are connected to the Solenoid.
    When the Solenoid operates, those two heavy duty wires are connected together
    inside the Solenoid to supply power to the Starter Motor.


    In any event the Starter Solenoid is only used for operating the Starter Motor,
    and once then engine is running will have no effect on how the engine runs.

    Will the engine run for a few minutes without stalling, when started from cold ?

    If so you could try the "Engine Adaption" procedure, which examines and resets the :

    • Closed throttle position reference status
    • Twist grip adaptation
    • Oxygen sensor adaptation status ( off idle )
    • Oxygen sensor adaptation range ( off idle )
    • Oxygen sensor adaptation status ( idle )
    • Oxygen sensor adaptation range ( idle )

    The procedure is :
    • Ensure the engine is COLD
    • WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE ( throughout the complete process ),
      Start the engine and allow it to warm up until the Cooling Fans come on.
    • Leave the engine to idle for a minimum of a further 12 minutes. ( Longer doesn't matter ).
    • Turn the Ignition OFF

    Other things to check are that the Throttle bodies are correctly sealed at their "Transition pieces".
    An air leak there can cause poor idling.

    Are there any "Diagnostic Trouble Codes"  ( DTC's ) ?

    You don't need any additional equipment to check for stored DTC's,
    and can display them on the Instrument Panel.

    This Topic explains how to do this, and you can also download a document listing all the DTC's,
    with their meanings andother information :

    Servicing Data, Reference Info. & DTC ( Fault ) Codes -
    Scroll down to Reply #8 "Diagnostic Trouble Codes ( DTC's ) / Fault Codes"

    Finally, do you have the after market "DealerTool" device ?

    This would allow you to check some other possible causes of poor idling,
    such as whether the Throttle Bodies are balanced.

    Cheers  :821:



    Last Edit: Nov 05, 2020, 09.18 am by Coconut

  • Offline smash   us

    • Trophy Pro  ‐    191
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • #2

    Offline smash

    • Trophy Pro
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 191
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • Country: us
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #2 on: Nov 05, 2020, 04.10 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 04.10 pm
    Thanks for the solenoid info.  Unfortunately the bike won't start or run at all without stalling without throttle.

    I'll give some back ground in case there is something in there someone with more knowledge than I might pick up on.  This poor running issue started about 2 years ago, at around 20k miles, with the bike stalling occasionally when I stopped and a low voltage message coming up.  The dealer replaced the alternator and voltage regulator under warranty, but it didn't fix it.  It continued to worsen so I took it back again later and they replaced the throttle position sensor, which didn't help either.  Both times the dealer service advisor swore up and down they couldn't make the bike stall on a test ride, but I couldn't out of the parking lot without it stalling.  I asked about at the 30k service, but it still wasn't fixed.  It has gotten progressively worse until it won't start or run at all without throttle input.

    I took it back to the dealer this spring for the 40k service and asked them again to fix the idling issue.  When I picked up the bike I found they had only changed the oil, for which they charged $415.00, and the bike still didn't idle.  The previous services were done under a service contract, so I don't really know if they also oil change only.  I reacted in a manner that caused a conversation with the service manager.  He acknowledged things had been done poorly in the service department for sometime and that he had been hired to fix the problem asked for another chance to address my problem.  The solution they came up with was the bike needed a valve adjustment, spark plugs, and an air filter at a cost of $2100.00.  I was suspicious of this because the problem started shortly after they performed the 20k service, and told the service manager I thought they were either wrong or they didn't actually do the 20k service.  In either case, I lost faith in them and I can do the work, so I told them them to put it back together and I would come get it.

    I got the bike back with the cruise control light flashing, indicating the cc is inoperable pending a switch test.  I tore down the bike to adjust the valves and found fasteners and parts missing.  I adjusted the valves, changed the spark plugs, and the air and fuel filters.  I put back on the air box, fuel tank and battery and found the bike runs in the same poor condition as before.  I also now have a check engine light.  I used the above process and got DCT codes P0108, P0113, P0351, P0352, P0353, P0413, P0460, P1575.  For P0108 and P0460, I was able to access and check the connectors, both of which were connected and locked.  For P0113 I confirmed the connection on the airbox was fastened and secure.  It was.  I also unscrewed the sensor and made sure it wasn't damaged.  For P0413 I checked the connection on the airbox by where the hoses from the reed valves connect.  It was also connected and secure.  For P0351, 352, and 353, I made sure the connections were secured and coils were pushed all the way in.  I pulled the coils and tested them with a multimeter and they tested 1.5 ohms.  In short, everything was connected and secure.  I don't what, if any of those codes I had prior to taking apart the bike, but I didn't have a check engine light.

    I don't have a dealer tool because I'm not much of a tech guy and I've read of people having problems setting it up.  I'm going to put the fuel tank and battery back on this morning and see where I am.  I'm probably going to take it to the other local Triumph dealer and have them sync the throttle bodies and see if they can get it to run.  I found out when I was up there ordering parts that they have a tech who is the designated "Trophy Guy," who seemed very knowledgeable when he helped me identify some parts the parts guys couldn't figure out.       

    Edit to add:  I thought about testing the fuel injectors to see if they are clogged, but I don't think the fuel rail is going to come loose from the throttle bodies without serious damage to the bolts.
    Last Edit: Nov 05, 2020, 04.15 pm by smash

  • Offline smash   us

    • Trophy Pro  ‐    191
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • #3

    Offline smash

    • Trophy Pro
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 191
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • Country: us
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #3 on: Nov 05, 2020, 05.29 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 05.29 pm
    Well, all done back up with everything connected and secure and no change.  Same DTC codes, but no new ones.  And I know for sure my valve gasket isn't leaking.  I've come to the end of my expertise, so I think I will let it stew for a while in case I think of something, then probably take it to the other local Triumph dealer and give them a crack at it.

  • Offline Coconut   gb

    • Trophy God  ‐    10004
    • *****
      #4

    Offline Coconut

    • Trophy God
    • *****
    • Posts: 10004
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: South Birmingham
    • Country: gb
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #4 on: Nov 05, 2020, 07.05 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 07.05 pm
    It's always difficult trying to diagnose problems remotely - it can be difficult enough
    even with access to the Bike, but in this case I would suspect failure of the MAP Sensor
    and/or Intake Air Temperature Sensor, or faulty wiring in the 5 Volt sensor supply circuit(s).

    Do you have a Service Manual ? - If not let me know and I can provide further information from it.

    Section 10 of the Service Manual has details of the various pinpoint tests for each of the DTC's.

    With the "DealerTool" device mentioned previously you would be able to check the
    Voltages at the MAP Sensor and Air Temperature Sensors, ( and other sensors ),
    along with information on Injector operation and Coil Dwell times,
    and the state of the Throttle Bodies Balance as mentioned previously,
    any of which could provide information to help identify where the problem lies.

    Without such a device you will probably need to rely on a proficient Dealer to make the diagnosis.

    Cheers  :821:


  • Offline smash   us

    • Trophy Pro  ‐    191
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • #5

    Offline smash

    • Trophy Pro
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 191
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • Country: us
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #5 on: Nov 05, 2020, 07.41 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 07.41 pm
    I appreciate all the effort you've gone to with me on this.

    I do have a service manual.  I looked at the pinpoint tests, but honestly is seemed kind of daunting since I have no experience with electronics.  I broke down and ordered a DealerTool.  Hopefully I can get it to work without too much fuss. 

    One question about the DealerTool.  The webpage said check and balance throttle bodies electronically without additional equipment.  Does it really balance from the computer without manual screwdriver adjustments? 
    Last Edit: Nov 05, 2020, 07.57 pm by smash

  • Offline Coconut   gb

    • Trophy God  ‐    10004
    • *****
      #6

    Offline Coconut

    • Trophy God
    • *****
    • Posts: 10004
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: South Birmingham
    • Country: gb
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #6 on: Nov 05, 2020, 08.00 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 08.00 pm
    By “without additional equipment” I think they mean without
    Vacuum gauges and the like.

    The balance can be checked without any other equipment
    but can’t be adjusted without turning the screws!

    Cheers  :821:


  • Offline smash   us

    • Trophy Pro  ‐    191
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • #7

    Offline smash

    • Trophy Pro
    • ***
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 191
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • Country: us
    Re: Starter Solenoid Wiring
    Reply #7 on: Nov 05, 2020, 08.24 pm
    Nov 05, 2020, 08.24 pm
    I really couldn't see how they could pull that off, but I'm amazed by technological advances on a regular basis.