Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] Topic: Unknown engine noise and repair  (Read 1434 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member  ‐    62
    • **
    • Topic Author

    Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 62
    • Bike: 2013 Trophy
    • City / Town: San Dimas
    Unknown engine noise and repair
    on: Sep 29, 2021, 10.14 pm
    Sep 29, 2021, 10.14 pm
    The other day I noticed a little engine noise when heading to work. By the time I got home the rattle sounded like a high-mileage diesel.  I did valves, air cleaner, fuel filter...etc a few thousand miles ago.  Today I started tearing everything down.  I started on the right side (oil level...OK).  I got to the timing chain cover and removed that hoping it might have been the issue.  Everything looks good there.  I removed everything else to expose the cam shaft train.  While rotating the lower timing chain drive bolt, I removed the socket and the entire nut came with it.  The socket-head bolt holding this on was snapped inside.  I did not touch that when working on it but I'm not sure if the previous owner did something.  I'm fairly confident that this was not was was rattling because I did not notice it being loose when I first put the socket on it. 

    So, one step back.  I'm working night shift tonight, I'll try to get the bolt extracted first thing when I wake up late morning tomorrow.  Wish me luck....I may need it. 


    https://cdn.img.triumph-trophy.com/Triumph-Cam-Bolt.md.jpg

    Two questions:

    Is this center bolt a hardened bolt? Seems like it should be.

    Is it possible to run the engine for a short time with the valve cover off?  I'm thinking if the valve clearances check out OK, this might help me troubleshoot the problem.


  • Offline janfmiller   us

    • Trophy Master  ‐    931
    • ****
      #1

    Offline janfmiller

    • Trophy Master
    • ****
    • Posts: 931
    • No such thing a bad weather; just wrong clothes!
    • Bike: Was: 2013 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: Superior Wisconsin
    • Country: us
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #1 on: Oct 01, 2021, 02.33 am
    Oct 01, 2021, 02.33 am
    What does the inside of the side cover look like??.  I can see where this might have made horrific noises if loose.  Might have just been jammed in place until you turned it... ???

    1977 Suzuki TS-185
    1974 Kawasaki Z-1 903
    2021 Honda Africa Twin Adventure Sports ES NON-DCT

  • Offline TriumphTwo

    • Trophy Member  ‐    59
    • **
      #2

    Offline TriumphTwo

    • Trophy Member
    • **
    • Posts: 59
    • Triumph fan
    • Bike: TTSE 2013, Sprint ST
    • City / Town: Hann. Muenden
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #2 on: Oct 01, 2021, 03.31 am
    Oct 01, 2021, 03.31 am
    I apologize for maybe not fully understanding the whole issue here, but one thing strikes me immediately :

    I remember there is a list of errors in the workshop manual, one error mentioning something about using a bolt to turn the engine over. Just my rough memory.
    Never got there, as I am not servicing the bike myself.
    But maybe this is caused due to an error in the workshop manual, when doing the service last time?

    Kind regards
    Michael


    "the hair rising sound of a triple"

  • Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member  ‐    62
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #3

    Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 62
    • Bike: 2013 Trophy
    • City / Town: San Dimas
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #3 on: Oct 01, 2021, 05.10 am
    Oct 01, 2021, 05.10 am
    I repaired the broken bolt today and finished tearing everything apart. I'm back at work and for some reason my pictures aren't making it past the firewall.  I'm pretty sure the issue is Cam Phase Timing.  I did a quick search and judging from what I see (cam timing notches not lining up when crank is TDC) I'm confident that this is the issue.  I read a post here about how to set this and will do it myself.  Of course, a few hours sleep when I get home in the AM before really dissecting the manual, then ordering parts would be best. 


  • Online Coconut   gb

    • Trophy God  ‐    9765
    • *****
      #4

    Online Coconut

    • Trophy God
    • *****
    • Posts: 9765
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: South Birmingham
    • Country: gb
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #4 on: Oct 01, 2021, 07.24 am
    Oct 01, 2021, 07.24 am
    The Service Manual "error" mentioned by TriumphTwo is this :

    3.   Section 3 - Cylinder Head.
    Pages 3.8 and 3.11 :

    Instructions on rotating the Crankshaft to align Timing Marks on the Camshaft sprockets,
    and prior to insertion of the Timing Pin when removing the Hydraulic Tensioner state :
    "Rotate the crankshaft clockwise ( the normal direction of rotation )
    using the bolt fitted to the end of the crankshaft".

    This is an INCORRECT description - The "bolt" fitted to the end of the Crankshaft is a
    Cap Head screw requiring use of an Allen Key or similar, and should only be tightened to 27 Nm.

    To rotate the engine, the larger 24mm Hex Headed "Spacer" ( which looks like a large nut )
    should be used, ensuring that the Cap Head bolt is not inadvertently tightened beyond 27 Nm.

    If the Cap Head bolt is over tightened, which could occur if it was used
    to rotate the engine, there is a risk of the bolt shearing off.

    Page 3.12. Para 4 correctly describes :
    "Rotate the engine using the 24mm hexagon on the end of the crankshaft ........."



    This, and all other known errors in the various Triumph publications for our Model of Trophy,
    can be found and downloaded from this Topic :

    Owners, Audio, and Service Handbooks + Service Manual errata

    Cheers  :821:


  • Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member  ‐    62
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #5

    Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 62
    • Bike: 2013 Trophy
    • City / Town: San Dimas
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #5 on: Oct 02, 2021, 02.32 am
    Oct 02, 2021, 02.32 am
    Thanks, Coconut.  As always the Trophy guru.  What are your thoughts on timing chain stretch instead of cam phase adjustment? The reason I ask (long explanation coming) is that when I did the valves, I though I may have messed up a bit. Though I inserted a pin to stop the crank from spinning and zip-tied the chain to the cam gears, there was one point where I had excessive slack in the chain. I didn't think too much about it at the time, but along with idle issues (you commented on my other post and I was getting ready to get to the carb sync when this happened) it felt like I lost a little mid-throttle torque/power.  That's when I started thinking about the timing chain.  I'll post to pics to get some advice. The first picture shows what the timing marks look like at TDC with a pin inserted:



    This first picture makes me think that I did, indeed, skip a gear on crank end.  The second picture shows the timing marks when I remove the pin and rotate the assembly to see how close I can get them.



    To me, this looks like it's either the Cam Phase timing issue, or possibly that the cam chain stretched a bit.  I will likely replace the chain because I've gone this far already and the bike has 57k miles on it.  Should I just try that first and see what happens, or just start buying cool tools to do the phase adjustment?

  • Online Coconut   gb

    • Trophy God  ‐    9765
    • *****
      #6

    Online Coconut

    • Trophy God
    • *****
    • Posts: 9765
    • Bike: 2017 Trophy SE
    • City / Town: South Birmingham
    • Country: gb
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #6 on: Oct 02, 2021, 07.32 am
    Oct 02, 2021, 07.32 am
    First of all, please be aware that I have not, as yet, personally attended to this task,
    and the advice provided below is based on information contained in the Service Manual
    along with my own judgements.

    Looking at the Photo's ...

    It can clearly be seen that the mark on the left cam is way out of alignment
    with the mark of the cam on the right - It looks like it is at least one tooth out,
    and possibly a little more.

    The second Photo is similar, except that the mark on the right hand cam
    is not horizontal, making it look as though the two marks are more
    in alignment when they aren't.

    The left sprocket bolts are not central in the elongated slots.
    ( Which they may not be when correctly adjusted ).

    I think your problem is that the Cams were not in the correct position,
    with the two marks horizontal, and engine locked with the Crankshaft Timing Pin,
    and both sprockets having their bolts located centrally within the elongated holes,
    when the Chain was refitted and Tension applied via the Tensioner.

    My advise would be to start over - Following the instructions in the Service Manual.
    Lock the Crankshaft, and ensure the two Camshaft marks are completely horizontal and in line,
    adjusting the position of the chain on the sprocket(s) if necessary, and then making
    the fine adjustments of rotating the sprockets within their elongated holes to ensure
    those marks are correcctly lined up.  With everything tightened back up and the Tensioner 
    applying tension, rotate the engine at least 4 times to make sure the marks still line up perfectly.

    The use of Service Tool T3880607 ( Camshaft Timing Tensioner )
    is specified in conjunction with Service Tool T3880609 ( Torque Limiter ) to set the
    correct tension of the chain when adjusting the Camshaft Timing.

    If the upper "Camshaft Ladder" has been removed, Service Tool T3880640 ( Camshaft Timing Plate  )
    is also needed  to ensure it is replaced in the correct position.

    Timing Chain stretch is a possibility, though I think this unlikely.
    It can be checked by removing the chain, suspending it from a suitable hook,
    hanging a 13 Kg weight on it, and measuring across 23 links of the chain
    for a maximum permitted length of 150.14mm ( Service Manual Chapter 3 Page 20 ).

    I presume you have a Service Manual - if not, let me know and I can provide further information.

    Cheers  :821:


  • Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member  ‐    62
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #7

    Offline THRASHED

    • Trophy Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 62
    • Bike: 2013 Trophy
    • City / Town: San Dimas
    Re: Unknown engine noise and repair
    Reply #7 on: Oct 02, 2021, 03.55 pm
    Oct 02, 2021, 03.55 pm
    Thank you so much for the reply.  I finished my graveyard shifts  :033: and got some good sleep last night.  I looked at the manual (yes, I have one, thanks for asking) and then read your reply.  I hadn't noticed the bolt not being centered in the slot. I did not touch that bolt when I did my valve service, I wonder if the PO had it serviced?  I agree with your "start over" policy.  I have a mini torque wrench for the timing chain tensioner.  I think the only specialty tool I need is the Camshaft Timing tool to make sure the slotted end of the cams are properly aligned.  While waiting for delivery of that tool, I'll pull the chain and do the measurement check.  If it's still not here, I'll replace my fork seals that have been patiently waiting on the workbench.  Still a chance I can get this done by the 11th.  I'm supposed to do a road trip up the California coast to see my daughter.
    Last Edit: Oct 02, 2021, 04.04 pm by THRASHED

     



    tweedy-bunch