Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] runabilty problem  (Read 2680 times)

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  • Offline gonzo68   us

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    Offline gonzo68

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    runabilty problem
    on: Aug 13, 2023, 08.16 pm
    Aug 13, 2023, 08.16 pm
    hi again, as I said in my new member post I have a 2013 silver ttse that I bought in May. Im 68 and never thought I would do what I did but I bought it online and had it delivered from the east coast to the midwest. The dealership was reported to be very honest and when I recieved it it was just as the video of it showed. Very nice, but it had a stumbling right off idle, a varying idle and a bogging upon accel at low rpm. At highway speeds or rpm it was fine. After learning that the 40,000 mile service had not been done I scheduled an appointment at one of the very prestigous triumph dealers in the midwest. When it was done I went to pick it up. Didn't get the 50 miles home without it qiuting when I slowed down for a stop sign. It started right back up but the idle wasnt good. When I got home, let it cool overnight and the next morning did the 12 minute tune up. It made no difference. Ran good on open loop but as soon as the closed loop kicked in it would fall on its face. Called the dealership and told them it was not fixed, and was bringing it back. after a week they called that it was done and told me the ecu had gotton confused and it was running great. Picked it up and yes, it seemed to run good on the way home, but as days went by it began doing the same old thing. So I started with the easiest thing I could think of, the oxygen sensor. I unplugged the connector, sarted it up and went for a ride. I ran perfect. So I plugged it back in and right at first it ran better but as time went on it started the same old thing. Convinced, I ordered a new o2 sensor. Got it a couple days ago, installed it, took a whole 15 minutes, did the 12 minute tune up, and it has been perfect since. Very disappointed in the dealership. I have no dealertool, just a voltmeter, and good mechanical sense and got it figured out when they told me all the diagnostics they had done and still didn't have it fixed as far as the runabilty problem. I hope they did better on the valve job and etc. In different posts from other members in the past a lot of the same symptoms were mentioned and the o2 sensor was not mentioned but it could be the culprit :001:

  • Offline Coconut   gb

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #1 on: Aug 13, 2023, 09.21 pm
    Aug 13, 2023, 09.21 pm
     :762:

    That's really useful to know, and is one of the Sensors that is often overlooked.

    It's purpose - located in the Exhaust Header pipe prior to the Catalytic converter,
    is to send information to the ECU about the content of the exhaust gases,
    which is used ( with information from other sensors ) to adjust the air/fuel ratio.

    There are DTC's ( Fault codes ) for the O2 Sensor but they only seem to be related to a malfunction
    of its own heater circuit ( P0031 & P0032 ) and P0130 - Oxygen Sensor circuit malfunction.

    The Service Manual does not provide any information such as Voltages / Resistance
    that could be useful for testing / measuring the performance of this sensor.

    Good job in identifying that this was the issue with your Trophy  :028:

    Cheers  :821:




  • Offline gonzo68   us

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    Offline gonzo68

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #2 on: Aug 14, 2023, 12.18 pm
    Aug 14, 2023, 12.18 pm
    tks coconut. I knew it could be several sensors or issues causing it but I wanted to start with the easiest one. It could of been the map sensor or tps switch or just a bad vacuum leak but it ran good on open loop so I ruled out the tps. I would like to thank you and all the other members that have taken the time to post pictorials and how to fix a problem tutorials. :821: :821: I have used several of them already and they were so very useful. The bike has a gps mount that was loose and your pictorial of how to install one was perfect for me to get in there and fix it. I'm loving the bike, my first Triumph. I've been a sport touring type rider for the 40+ years I've been riding,fjr, concours, bmw rt's, with a busa thrown in for good measure.I've also got a vic vision in the garage also which I love. The wind protection, handling, ride comfort, and the feel from the triple is unmatched in my opinion but the comfort of the vision is too.

  • Online STJIM   us

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #3 on: Aug 15, 2023, 12.20 am
    Aug 15, 2023, 12.20 am


    Gonzo68 :

    Nice to hear you corrected the problem.  Congrats !

    BTW,  the term O2 sensor is a little mis-leading since the output goes high when the mixture is rich, not lean.  So it's really a gas sensor, not an oxygen sensor.

    In closed loop, the O2 sensor output voltage should flip between a high and low voltage in a fairly quick manner.  If motorcycles used an OBDII standard as used in most automobiles, we could use an inexpensive hand tool / monitor and watch the O2 sensor in action.

    If a high impedance (digital ) voltmeter is used, the voltage read should be about 0.45 DC volts since a measured DC voltage is an average voltage if the voltage is flipping between a high voltage and low voltage.   If an oscilloscope is available, you could also watch the O2 sensor in action.  O2 sensors are usually checked while running at a steady RPM of about 1500 RPM.
    IBA #35372  Mile Eater Gold 8-2022
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  • Offline Coconut   gb

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #4 on: Aug 15, 2023, 07.26 am
    Aug 15, 2023, 07.26 am
    ..... and also known as a "Lambda" sensor where "lambda" refers to air–fuel equivalence ratio,
    and is usually denoted by the symbol λ which you may see on some circuit diagrams.


  • Online STJIM   us

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #5 on: Aug 15, 2023, 12.35 pm
    Aug 15, 2023, 12.35 pm
    Yes, and the function of the O2 sensor is to allow the ECM to maintain a closed-loop air / fuel ratio of 14.7 which is also called a stoichiometric mixture.

    Stoichiometric refers to a condition where a balance of fuel and oxidizer such that no excess of either remains after combustion.

    Also, there are wide band and narrow band O2 sensors.  Our TTSE uses a narrow band O2 sensor.   A wide band O2 sensor isn't designed to flip back and forth between a rich & lean state.  They actually give an output  voltage that is related to the air fuel mixture ratio.  You could use one with a data logger to record how the air fuel ratio was over time and under different loads, throttle position and RPM, etc.
    Last Edit: Aug 15, 2023, 12.37 pm by STJIM
    IBA #35372  Mile Eater Gold 8-2022
    BBG  5-2014  SS3K 9-2020
    Great Lakes 100 : 2011 / 2019 / 2022 / 2023
    2015 TTSE , 2008 Concours C-14
    1998 ST1100  1976 Moto Guzzi Convert

  • Offline gonzo68   us

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    Offline gonzo68

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #6 on: Aug 15, 2023, 01.20 pm
    Aug 15, 2023, 01.20 pm
    stjim and coconut,I knew some of what you said, some I didn't, and its good to know. I know with this bike I should get a dealertool but the truth is I'm a good mechanic with my hands but when it comes to computers and and such I'm challenged. I could use it but with some of the posts of some of the problems getting it set up I would be lost. I mean this is the first forum I have been a part of. What has drawn me in was the helpfulness of everybody. If some of my posts seem awkward, I appologize, I'm new to this.  I've got good knowledge of how things work mechanically but if I mess something up on a computer I yell help. What made me think o2 sensor was that I figured that was the only sensor that didn't have any input on open loop although I could be wrong on that, but I don't think so.  When I first got the bike, before the valve adjustment and 40,000 mile service it was on getting about 42 mpg, now after that and the o2 problem fixed its getting about 51 to 53 average. :001:

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    Re: runabilty problem
    Reply #7 on: Aug 15, 2023, 03.06 pm
    Aug 15, 2023, 03.06 pm
    Gonzo68 :

    Keep asking questions -  the only dumb questions is the ones not asked !!  We all are learning (hopefully ).

    Your hunch was right about the O2 sensor.   BTW, the reason why the bike ran good with it disconnected was because when it was disconnected, the bike was never running in closed loop - it was kept in open loop.

    Also, there is nothing magic about the O2 sensor used on the TTSE.  It's has  4 leads.  2 for the heater and a signal ground and output voltage lead.  A universal sensor could be used if it had the correct mounting thread and would definitely cost a bunch less.  But if a universal sensor is used ( would have to splice the wires ) it should be a sensor used before the catalytic converter.   The O2 sensor used after the CAT is a different type of O2 sensor - uses a different chemistry.

    BTW, I looked up the part # for the TTSE sensor and 2 PN's were listed :  one for a "kit"  and the other for just a sensor.  Don't know what that means.   The "kit" cost much less than a sensor.  Can't imagine what could be in a "kit" if it doesn't include a sensor.  And if it does, why does it cost less than just a sensor ?    I sent Hermy's an enquiry to hopefully find out.

    Nice to hear your mileage increased.   So low mileage could be a symptom of a bad O2 sensor.   I understand before a sensor completely fails, it gets "lazy" :  doesn't "flip" as often as it should, slow to react to changes in the fuel /air mixture.
    Last Edit: Aug 15, 2023, 03.11 pm by STJIM
    IBA #35372  Mile Eater Gold 8-2022
    BBG  5-2014  SS3K 9-2020
    Great Lakes 100 : 2011 / 2019 / 2022 / 2023
    2015 TTSE , 2008 Concours C-14
    1998 ST1100  1976 Moto Guzzi Convert

     



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