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Offline unsubtle

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P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« on: April 05, 2016, 01:13:49 am »
I hope you don't mind my posting this here. I ride an Explorer, which of course is very similar to the current Trophy 1200 triple. The following is about a problem which a few of us have seen, and what I  think is the cause. As our bikes are so similar, it was suggested to me that I post it here in case it is useful to someone else. This took rather a long time to work out!

A couple of the stages in the "fix" will be a little different on the Trophy as you have more plastic to take off, but as I haven't worked on a Trophy I thought it best to leave them for you to interpret.



I've seen a few people have had a problem where the bike refuses to start or cuts out while riding with a P2111 error "Throttle actuator motor stuck open" or P2119 "Throttle drive system error". These may also be accompanied by P1135, P1574 and P1607. You may also find that if you test the bike using DealerTool, sometimes the throttle butterflies will not move even though no error is generated. In my case the problem was intermittent, which made it hard to track down.

Going from towersk, the method for getting the codes on the Trophy is:

Press and hold in both the "SCROLL UP" button and the "SELECT" button,
and then Switch on the Ignition while still holding the buttons in.
The Fault Code(s) will then be displayed on the Instrument Panel.

The following may be known to some of us, but I had a good look while I was diagnosing my own bike, and I don't think that it is widely known.

Cause

The problem is usually attributed to a failure of the TPS (throttle position sensor). I think the answer may be simpler than that - it certainly was on my bike. I found that the throttle bodies had partly pulled out of the rubber stubs joining them to the head, mainly on the left hand side. When I re-seated them, the problems stopped. It seems that the block of throttle bodies was sufficiently distorted that the throttle motor could not always move the butterflies.

Because the TEX is fly by wire, it has safety mechanisms to check that the throttle butterflies are where they are supposed to be - you don't want to find the bike accelerating past 140mph if they stick! So it checks that the throttles move when you turn on the ignition, and it also keeps track of where they should be vs where they are while you ride. If the comparison doesn't work, it cuts the engine, but will allow you to restart a few minutes later.

One of the things that led me to diagnosing my intermittent failure to start was that once when I rode it and opened up, the bike jerked forwards, adding about 20% more power suddenly rather than in a smooth roll-on. When I opened the throttle again to test, the engine cut out. In hind-sight, this was because the throttles were getting sticky at their mid position.

Check

Check whether the throttle bodies are seated by removing the tank and airbox. As an aside, getting the tank off takes a while, but it is actually an easy job, and the airbox is very easy compared with older bikes. Now shine a torch on the front of the injector bodies and check if they are seated in their rubbers. There are square shoulders on the front of the injector bodies, and these should be right up against the rubbers when they are fully seated.

Fix

To re-seat them, remove the black plastic cover over the coolant header tank (and the petrol tank and airbox as above). Fit a 3mm "allen head" socket on a foot-long quarter-inch extension bar, reach in front of the header tank and under the injectors, and slacken the Jubilee clip on the rubber stub for the central throttle body. You will need to move a couple of hoses out of the way to see it, and there is very little room to shine a torch, but it's not very hard. Also slacken the Jubilee clips on the outboard throttle bodies - these are easier to get to. Now rock the throttle bodies back and forth to easy them in to the rubbers - they really don't want to go! Then tighten up.

If you have DealerTool, check that the throttles open and close. You may notice that they are now quieter - they don't "snap" in to position, probably because there is less friction. Now reassemble.

Why did it happen?

If you need to remove the valve cover, you will find that the throttle motor overhangs it, preventing its removal. The factory manual gives no guidance on how to remove the cover, so it is a common practice to pull the throttle motor back a little to give clearance. This is done by some dealer mechanics as well as home mechanics - in fact I only noticed the problem because a dealer looking at the TPS had pulled the throttle bodies a bit further back than I had, making the problem more obvious.

To avoid the problem when working on the valves in future, slacken the Jubilee clips as above before removing the valve cover, then be careful to re-seat the throttle bodies afterwards

So what about the throttle position sensor?

I can't be sure that the TPS is never the problem. However if you replace the TPS, you have to remove the throttle bodies entirely - there isn't room to do it in situ. This means that as part of the job, the throttle bodies will be re-seated anyway, which will make the symptoms go away even if the TPS was not the guilty party. My feeling is that it is possible that the TPS was never to blame, and that the problem is just a poorly documented procedure in the factory workshop manual.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:14:56 am by unsubtle »

Offline nert

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 01:32:31 am »
Great observation, and explanation. Following a mental review of my recent experience adjusting valves and setting the cam timing, I can see where you are 100% correct. VERY good methodical, unprejudiced,  evaluation of cause and cure. I have no authority to admit you to this forum, (not that its exclusive),  and I appreciate you taking the time to share with your blood brothers, knowledge that may have taken years to acquire.
Nicely written and presented.

Offline DaMonk45

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 01:53:32 am »
One of the best write ups I have seen.

Online janfmiller

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 04:27:34 am »
please, what is a 'jubilee clip'???
1977 Suzuki TS-185
1974 Kawasaki Z-1 903
2021 Honda Africa Twin Adventure Sports ES NON-DCT

Offline unsubtle

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 04:34:13 am »
A throttle body looks a bit like a carb - a metal tube about 5cm in diameter with some bits hanging off. The engine end of the tube doesn't attach directly to the cylinder head of the engine, but is inserted into a rubber tube (the "inlet stub"). A metal band wraps round the overlap of the injector body and the inlet stub, and is tightened on to it to seal the joint. This is often called a Jubilee clip - although strictly speaking Triumph uses a slightly different design. The band is open at the bottom, and a small Allen bolt with a 3mm head pulls the two ends of the band together to tighten it.

Sorry if this is all familiar stuff!

Online janfmiller

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 04:40:33 am »
*Originally Posted by unsubtle [+]
A throttle body looks a bit like a carb - a metal tube about 5cm in diameter with some bits hanging off. The engine end of the tube doesn't attach directly to the cylinder head of the engine, but is inserted into a rubber tube (the "inlet stub"). A metal band wraps round the overlap of the injector body and the inlet stub, and is tightened on to it to seal the joint. This is often called a Jubilee clip - although strictly speaking Triumph uses a slightly different design. The band is open at the bottom, and a small Allen bolt with a 3mm head pulls the two ends of the band together to tighten it.

Sorry if this is all familiar stuff!
[/quote

just never heard that term, thanks!!
1977 Suzuki TS-185
1974 Kawasaki Z-1 903
2021 Honda Africa Twin Adventure Sports ES NON-DCT

Offline Coconut

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 08:37:05 am »
Hi unsubtle, :400: to the Forum !


Anyone can join here - you don't even need to own a motorcycle, let alone aTrophy !

Thak you so much for taking the time and trouble to post your findings.

Some of ouur Members have indeed experienced similar problems,
which have been discussed in other Posts,
and the information you have provided will be very useful.

I maintain a separate Topic : "HOW TO : Check the most common faults & issues"

Although this doesn't appear to be a "Common" Problem,
it is certainly one that can catch Members out,
so I shall add some notes detailing yours, and others' findings.
EDIT : - I have now added this information here :
"THROTTLE SURGES or CLOSES or UNUSUAL OPERATION"
and have acknowledged your contribution  :047:

Thanks again  :028:   :821:


« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 08:58:09 am by Coconut »

Offline unsubtle

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Re: P2111, P2119 may be caused by throttle bodies not seated
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 12:39:46 pm »
That's quite an impressive resource!

 



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