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Offline crazyman

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Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« on: June 28, 2013, 10:08:07 PM »
Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.

In the midst of taking the Trophy apart to install Hyperlites in the back, and Motolights in the front, I planned to also install a pair of El Grande horns from FIAMM.  Another member here had done so, and even provided a video so we could hear it.

I did find a nice spot on the right hand side to mount one of the horns.  The other goes where the original goes.
Anyway, Following the tiny little instructions on the package I connected the wires according to what seemed like the right connections.  According to the service manual, here are two leads from the bikes' horn circuit, one from the switch and one that provides power.  I color coded them blue as seen in the pic.  The horns appear to be wired in series, one connector on each horn.  Ok, got that.  Coded red in the pic.
When I turn on the bike, hit the horn all I get is a click from the relay.  I checked and rechecked.  I have no clue what is wrong.  And advice is welcomed and appreciated !!






Offline w8d4it

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 01:38:17 AM »
I just took delivery of my FIAMMs yesterday and planned on installing over the weekend.  I must have missed the video.  Do you happen to have a link.  Might make the install easier.  Where did you put the relay?  The attachment tab is plastic and looks a bit fragile.
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Offline kgerry

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »
you don't have the relay doing anything..... on a DPDT relay pins 85 & 86 energize the coil.... but you only have one leg of the relay portion connected... you have a connection at pin 87 but not going anywhere...   when the relay is energized across the coil (85 & 86) then pin 87 shorts to pin 30... when the coil deenergizes then pin 87 shorts to 87A.....   in this pic you have an open-ended connection....

Offline crazyman

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 09:30:40 PM »
Here is the diagram that comes on the package:



Each horn has one post connector.


Closeup of the relay. 



On the bike there are two leads that plug into the stock horn.  One is from the horn switch, the other is power (when the ignition is on).
These are visible in the third picture from the original post.  I ran extensions from there to where I was going to mount the relay.

So, according to how I read the diagram, I connect the lead from the horn switch to 85.  The power lead to 86.  Then run leads from 87 to the individual horns.  Does it matter that I connected two leads to one of the two 87 posts ?
Do I need another power lead attached at 30 ? Connected to or separate from the power lead to 86 ?
I got frustrated and put the original horn back on.
Can you give me a better idea as to how to wire this up ?  I'm barely able to get the basics as it is. 
Thanks.


*Originally Posted by kgerry [+]
you don't have the relay doing anything..... on a DPDT relay pins 85 & 86 energize the coil.... but you only have one leg of the relay portion connected... you have a connection at pin 87 but not going anywhere... That connection goes out to the horns.   when the relay is energized across the coil (85 & 86) then pin 87 shorts to pin 30... when the coil deenergizes then pin 87 shorts to 87A.....   in this pic you have an open-ended connection....
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 10:14:42 PM by crazyman »

Offline Coconut

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 10:50:45 AM »
Edited to add :
Assuming that you are correct with the connections from original horn wiring, and having connected
these to terminals #85 & 86 the relay is operating when the horn button is pressed : ...

Looks like you are just missing the Power connection to terminal #30.

Don't connect the bridge wire shown on your diagram from #30 to #86.

Think of the relay as a heavy duty switch -
It has an internal solenoid, controlled by terminals #85 & #86 ( which use minimal power ).
When the solenoid is energised it causes #30 and #87 to be connected together.

It looks like you have already connected #85 & #86 to the original horn wiring.
The "click" you can hear when pushing the horn button shows that the internal solenoid is working.

Connect your main power supply from the Battery +ve via a 10A in-line fuse to #30.
Connect the power feed for the horns to #87( looks like you've done this )
Make sure the horns are properly grounded ( earthed ) through their mounting brackets -
( Remove any paint covering metal to metal contact points )
The original horn wiring - two wires, are then connected to terminals #85 & #86 ( looks like you've done this ).

When the horn button is pressed the internal solenoid activates,
and connects main power through to the horns.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 06:13:00 PM by Coconut »

Offline miss

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 02:09:31 PM »
horn button, not close to ground?

if so the relay will not work

Offline crazyman

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2013, 11:06:14 AM »
*Originally Posted by Coconut [+]
Edited to add :
Assuming that you are correct with the connections from original horn wiring, and having connected
these to terminals #85 & 86 the relay is operating when the horn button is pressed : ...

Looks like you are just missing the Power connection to terminal #30.

Don't connect the bridge wire shown on your diagram from #30 to #86.

Think of the relay as a heavy duty switch -
It has an internal solenoid, controlled by terminals #85 & #86 ( which use minimal power ).
When the solenoid is energised it causes #30 and #87 to be connected together.

It looks like you have already connected #85 & #86 to the original horn wiring.
The "click" you can hear when pushing the horn button shows that the internal solenoid is working.

Connect your main power supply from the Battery +ve via a 10A in-line fuse to #30.
Connect the power feed for the horns to #87( looks like you've done this )
Make sure the horns are properly grounded ( earthed ) through their mounting brackets -
( Remove any paint covering metal to metal contact points )
The original horn wiring - two wires, are then connected to terminals #85 & #86 ( looks like you've done this ).

When the horn button is pressed the internal solenoid activates,
and connects main power through to the horns.



I spent a few hours Friday attempting to install the horns as you described.  I added a lead, with a 10a in line fuse from the battery to #30.  After checking everything, I hit the switch.  I heard the click in the relay, but no horn.  I got really ticked off and ripped the horns out and tossed them in the bin.  I installed the original horn.  At least that works.

Oh, I installed the gps.  Mounted it on the left hand bar. 

Offline Coconut

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Re: Failed install of FIAMM ElGrande horns.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 06:00:00 PM »
I got really ticked off and ripped the horns out and tossed them in the bin.

Sorry to hear that crazyman  :012:

I haven't changed the horn on my bike at all, so I can't give you a definitive "This will work" answer,
but If the following instructions are followed I am 99.9% certain that your new horns will work -
so go and grab them back out of the bin  :169:

If you push the horn button and hear the relay clicking, then it appears that the relay
is connected correctly to your horn button, and is operating as expected when the button is pressed.

TESTING :

If you are not electrically minded, don't be put off -
you can still carry out some simple tests using simple equipment....

First of all, and needing no equipment at all, we need to test the horns to make sure they actually work !
Connect a wire to the spade terminal of the horn , strip the other end of the wire and hold it on the +ve terminal of the battery,
then briefly touch the mounting bracket of the horn onto the -ve terminal of the battery. The horn should sound.
If the horn doesn't sound then try this : :157:  ! ! !  and put them back in the bin !

Ideally you need a 12v tester - you can pick these up quite cheaply at Walmart etc -
Looks a bit like a small screwdriver with a wire coming out of the blunt end, and a crocodile clip on the end of the wire.
The body of the tester has a bulb in it which lights up when current passes through it.



Before you start - test the tester first to make sure it works ! :153:
Put the pointy end of the probe onto the +ve terminal of your battery,
and the crocodile clip onto the -ve terminal of your battery - the bulb should light up!

I have just checked the wiring to the original horn on my own Trophy.
This photograph shows the two wires removed from the two terminals of the horn :



The Blue wire is a +ve supply to one terminal of the horn.
The purple wire is from the Horn Button - when the horn button is pressed this connects to Earth ( Ground ).

If you connect the 12v Tester between these two wires, turn the ignition on,
and press the horn button, the tester bulb should light up as long as the horn button is held in,
and go out when the horn button is released.

Once confirmed these two wires are OK, they can be connected to your Relay terminals #85 and #86.
Do not connect anything else to these terminals. It doesn't matter which way round you connect them.
Now when you press the horn button ( with the Ignition "on" ) you should be able to hear the Relay 'click' as the internal contacts operate.

Now let's check the power feed from the battery to the relay.
Put the probe end of the 12v Tester onto the end of the wire you have connected to the +ve terminal of the battery,
and connect the crocodile clip onto the -ve battery terminal.  The 12v tetster bulb should light up.
If it doesn't light up, check the in-line fuse, and the connection at the +ve battery terminal.
Once satisfied that there is power at the end of the wire, connect it to terminal #30 of the Relay.

The next step is to check the Relay - place the probe onto Relay terminal #87, leaving the crocodile clip connected to the -ve battery terminal. 
Turn the Ignition on and press the horn button - the 12v tester bulb should light - if it does then the Relay is working correctly.
If the bulb does not light up try holding the probe onto the only other unused terminal - shown in your photograph.
The centre terminal is not depicted on your packaging wiring diagram !
If the alternative terminal causes the 12v tester bulb to light up when the horn button is pressed,
and goes out when the horn button is released, then this is the one to use !
If neither of these terminals work then the Relay is faulty.

Now you have tested everything up to the output from the Relay, and confirmed it is all working,
so connect a wire to terminal #87 of the Relay ( or the alternative if appropriate after the previous step ),
and connect the other end to your new horns.

EARTHING / GROUNDING OF HORNS

The original Triumph Horn bracket is not suitable for mounting the type of horns you are upgrading with,
as the bracket is insulated, and does not provide an Earth, or Ground contact.
( This is why there are 2 wires feeding the original Triumph horn ).

The Triumph Trophy, like most vehicles, uses a -ve earth ( also called -ve ground ) system,
where the -ve terminal of the battery is connected to the frame of the bike. 
This allows electrical equipment to also be connected to the -ve side of the battery
by connecting it to another part of the frame, or metallic part of the bike
that is is physically ( and electrically ) joined to the frame,
removing the need to run lots of separate wires back to the -ve terminal of the battery.

The horns you are using need a +ve supply ( via Relay terminal #87 when the horn button is pressed )
and also need to be physically / mechanically / electrically connected to a clean metallic conducting part of the bike
that provides an electrical path via the frame back to the -ve terminal of the battery.

The horns you are fitting are earthed ( grounded ) via their mounting brackets,
so make sure that there is a good electrical connection between the bracket and the mounting point,
and that the mounting point does in fact provide an electrical path back to the battery -ve terminal,
i.e. the mounting point is bare metal and not painted - the layer of paint will insulate the electrical connection,
or make sure that you are not mounting onto a part that is insulated from the frame,
for example by rubber mounts to the frame, such as the original Triumph horn mounting bracket.

Your horns WILL now work - he says confidently  :028:

Finish off by coating the bracket mounting earth / ground point with a smear of petroleum jelly ( Vaseline )
or other waterproof grease, especially if you have scratched paint off somewhere to make a good electrical contact,
as this will help protect against future corrosion  :169:


« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 12:58:11 PM by Coconut »