Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] Ethanol-free Gas  (Read 10088 times)

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  • Online tdragger   us

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    Ethanol-free Gas
    on: Jun 25, 2018, 06.57 pm
    Jun 25, 2018, 06.57 pm
    It looks like a mid-Atlantic chain, WAWA, is starting to offer ethanol-free gas at many of their stations.  My local station has converted 8 of their 16 pumps from diesel to ethanol-free.  It will be interesting to see how it does in the Trophy.
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    16 Triumph Trophy SE (2021 Iron Butt Rally)
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  • Offline Volfy   us

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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #1 on: Jun 25, 2018, 08.57 pm
    Jun 25, 2018, 08.57 pm
    Don't think ethanol free means everything is A-OK.  I wouldn't rust E0 any more than E10.  Long before E10, back in the mid '80's, my '82 Yamaha XJ650's carbs got gunked up after sitting in the garage for a few weeks in the late fall up north.  Cleaning out 4 CV carbs was no joke.  In fact, back in those days, folks used to add ethanol into their gas tanks to get rid of the small amount of condensate water that accumulate in fuel tanks.  It was a beneficial additive.  :008:

    Personally, I'd rather get fresh stock from a busy gas station (high turn-over) than worrying about 10% ethanol.  I've run countless cars/trucks/bikes on E10 for decades now with no problem... as long as the vehicle is driven regularly and the gasoline doesn't sit for long periods of time.  Small utility engines (lawn-care equip, generators, etc.) with simple carbs and boat engines that sit idle for months are more likely to suffer problems.  Only bikes I worry about ethanol are my dirtbikes and my track bunny.  Those I do drain the tank and replace with fresh gasoline after sitting for 6-8months.  Even adding fuel stabilizer only works for a while.

    What troubles me though is the E15 I'm starting to see at some gas stations.  Virtually all road vehicles engines can tolerate up to 10%.  Going up to 15% may push the limits of what some ECUs can safely compensate for.  Until mfrs rate their vehicles for E15, only E85 engines are okay eating this stuff.
    Converto, ergo sum.       '15 300RR, '15 250XCF-W, '14 K1600GT, '12 VFR1200, '05 GSXR600 (track).

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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #2 on: Jun 25, 2018, 09.45 pm
    Jun 25, 2018, 09.45 pm
    I agree on the E85.  Ethanol, higher transportation costs than gasoline, uses more clean water to produce than gasoline, and SHOULD be used for food instead of fuel.  HMMMMMM!
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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #3 on: Jun 25, 2018, 10.16 pm
    Jun 25, 2018, 10.16 pm
    *Originally Posted by Volfy [+]
    Don't think ethanol free means everything is A-OK.  I wouldn't rust E0 any more than E10.  Long before E10, back in the mid '80's, my '82 Yamaha XJ650's carbs got gunked up after sitting in the garage for a few weeks in the late fall up north.  Cleaning out 4 CV carbs was no joke.  In fact, back in those days, folks used to add ethanol into their gas tanks to get rid of the small amount of condensate water that accumulate in fuel tanks.  It was a beneficial additive.  :008:

    Personally, I'd rather get fresh stock from a busy gas station (high turn-over) than worrying about 10% ethanol.  I've run countless cars/trucks/bikes on E10 for decades now with no problem... as long as the vehicle is driven regularly and the gasoline doesn't sit for long periods of time.  Small utility engines (lawn-care equip, generators, etc.) with simple carbs and boat engines that sit idle for months are more likely to suffer problems.  Only bikes I worry about ethanol are my dirtbikes and my track bunny.  Those I do drain the tank and replace with fresh gasoline after sitting for 6-8months.  Even adding fuel stabilizer only works for a while.

    What troubles me though is the E15 I'm starting to see at some gas stations.  Virtually all road vehicles engines can tolerate up to 10%.  Going up to 15% may push the limits of what some ECUs can safely compensate for.  Until mfrs rate their vehicles for E15, only E85 engines are okay eating this stuff.

    I think that you may have 'hit the nail on the head' with the time aspect, any type of petrol that's been sat in a tank for a few weeks/months will take on water/cause problems.


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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #4 on: Jun 25, 2018, 11.32 pm
    Jun 25, 2018, 11.32 pm
    We’ve had this discussion before.  Modern additives aside and the occasional bottle of fuel system cleaner (once a year of Lucas for me), corn alcohol blended with unleaded motor fuel decreases its efficiency overall but makes lots of money for certain congressional constituencies.  E10 thru E85 blended fuels only show improved efficiencies in moderate to highly modified power plants, not what we typically use at the consumer level. 

    Case in point and not terribly scientific is that ALL of my vehicles run noticeably better and get measurably better fuel mileage on E0 fuel.  Cases in point:  120 miles one way to my daughter’s house - all barely burn a quarter of a tank on E0 fuel and all burn nearly 1/2 a tank on E10.  Harder to measure with my bikes as I only make that trip very rarely on them but I’m willing to bet the results will be similar. 

    My truck has a ‘lean miss’ on E10 and idles perfectly on E0.  All three 4 wheelers (two cars and a pickup truck) have noticeably better throttle responses while the bikes -  may be symptomatic.  Trophy has had nothing but mid grade E0 as recommended by the dealer and runs perfectly while the Sprint ran 93 E10 and E0 for years until my dealer chastised me into using mid grade E0 - still runs well but I feel it ran better on 93 E10-E0 - purely subjective of course.  Reams of material out there primarily against the use of blended fuels - decide for yourself.  Thinking they are only available in North America and Brazil. 

    Ethanol blended fuels are useless in cold weather climates as their efficiency goes to zero before freezing altogether.
    Last Edit: Jun 25, 2018, 11.43 pm by SprintST1050

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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #5 on: Jun 26, 2018, 12.45 am
    Jun 26, 2018, 12.45 am
    You have to be careful about what you refer to as "efficiency".

    The reason ethanol laced gasoline gets less mpg isn't because ethanol is "less efficient".  It is because ethanol's stoichiometric ratio (or ideal Air-Fuel Ratio) is lower than gasoline:

    Gasoline - 14.7:1
    Ethanol -   9.0:1
    Methanol - 6.47:1

    This means - for a clean burn - it takes more ethanol to mix with the same amount of air than gasoline.  It takes even more methanol for the same amount of air.  So... what this means is that the same 7 gallons of fuel in that Trophy SE will be consumed faster if it is laced with either alcohol than if it's pure gasoline.

    But... it also means that each combustion cycle sucking in the same amount of air is burning more fuel, which means higher power output than with pure gasoline.  This is why Top Fuel Alcohol Dragsters (burning methanol) make crazy HP.  Now with only 10% ethanol, the typical driver/rider is unlikely to notice the tiny bit of extra power, but much more likely to notice the drop in MPG.  Thus the bad rap.

    There is also two side BENEFITS of adding alcohol.  First is higher octane rating.  This actually will allow the ignition timing to be advanced more - especially when weather is hot and engine loading is high.  More timing advance generally increase efficiency, actually.  Of course, the amount with E10 is hard for most drivers to notice, but it is there.

    Second side bennie is higher latent heat of evaporation, which helps to lower the intake charge temperature, which in turn lowers the threshold of preignition and knock.  This allows knock sensor equipped ECU's to advance ignition timing further.

    Not saying adding alcohol is great.  I tend to agree it is done more as a disguised farm subsidy than the touted energy independence.  I just have to stick up for alcohol getting some of its undeserved bad rap.

    Converto, ergo sum.       '15 300RR, '15 250XCF-W, '14 K1600GT, '12 VFR1200, '05 GSXR600 (track).

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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #6 on: Jun 26, 2018, 02.18 am
    Jun 26, 2018, 02.18 am
    So ethyl alcohol and the process to make it has been around for centuries, was always known to be combustible, internal combustion engines have been around for over a hundred years, and nobody chose to run an internal combustion engine on it until recently (in the historical sense).  Looks like when oil discovery and production was in it's infancy someone would have decided that ethanol fuel was better and cheaper if that is really the case.  It's not like brilliant inventive minds have only decided to surface in the last few decades.  As an aside, in the late 80's early 90's MTBE's were thought by the government of the day to be the latest and greatest oxidizer for fuel, and multiple refineries and chemical plants spent hundreds of millions of dollars in engineering and construction money only to have the government decide that, NOPE, it's a carcinogen and we can't use that (I don't disagree, since I don't really know for sure).  No money for reimbursement of the outlay to make it happen, which the government itself had mandated.  BRILLIANT!!  I'll go have a Guinness now.
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    Re: Ethanol-free Gas
    Reply #7 on: Jun 26, 2018, 03.46 am
    Jun 26, 2018, 03.46 am
    Here In Dallas we had MTBE {methyl tertiary-butyl ether} fuel additive this was put in gasoline as it's oxygenates the fuel.
    It was used when we had more cars and trucks with carburetors the fuel burned more completely.
    When it was found in ground water across the U.S. it's use was stopped.

    When we went to E10 fuel my old Land Rover Disco used 15% more fuel,,,,,,, it took 5% more gasoline to burn the E10 ethanol. :172:

    I just picked up a little truck a few months ago a gasser, but for the last 15 years I have used diesel vehicles other than my bikes.

     So my take is I don't like ethanol.

       
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